Author Topic: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis  (Read 2269 times)

Offline tripletopper

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Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« on: July 24, 2014, 02:51:51 PM »
I have an idea on how to network older video games without rewriting new code for individual games.   I called around and found that Anthony Gaccione of Sega said that if I can show a Sega game being networked with the original cartridge/disc , they'll license Net Genesises (plus master System, Sega CD, 32X, 32XCD, Saturn and Dreamcast, four of those other systems could be done right now.)

I found a company who can build 2 prototypes and draw up plans for a mass manufacturer to make Net Genesises for $18,000 cash in research costs and 10% of my profits.

If you want to either a) build a device to my specifications that should network the Genesis, b) fund the $18000, or c) start preliminary work and have this research company finish it, I'll offer a percentage of my idea.   To give you an idea, this company after taking $18,000 will take 10% of my idea.    This gives you an idea on how to make it worth my while.

I know it can exist with things currently in the market, including the key connection to make it work.  I just don't know how to wire items, or code well enough at a machine level to do something I desire

I know the one secret to getting this to work with EVERY game with minimal labor.   Please email me with your terms and we'll discuss it.  Note this will be a licensed Sega product if we can get it to work with ANY Sega-authorized game.   Look up AcidMods account "tripletopper" to email me.

Offline Modded Matt

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 05:23:18 AM »
The biggest problem you are going to run into is that back then there was no networking, so the games were not designed with multiplayer in mind.  If you look at FSD and Link for modded xbox 360, you will see that without changing the programming of the game, the hardware can only function if the game has provisions for it.

I love the enthusiasm and initiative, but I don't see a market for such an endeavor and will have to pass. Good luck.

FYI, there is a genesis emulator for modded xbox 360's. I fell you would be better off perfecting the emulator and working with FSD/Link to establish a multiplayer platform on their existing network.

Offline tripletopper

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 10:11:02 AM »
All right, I'll tell the secret to this working.  It's a low-ping connection, like Sprint Direct Connect.  If you can communicate in less than half a frame, then EVERY game, no matter how great or obscure will be turned online, assuming it has a 2-player mode.  Sprint has 1 ms one-way ping time for distances up from 200-300 km worth of distance.  A 60 frame/second game has a 16 ms heartbeat.  If you are able to communicate in 8 ms one way and allow an 8 ms response time, you don't need a special network code for games.   This can work in theory with every game system, but I got Sega saying they like to concept enough where they'll license a Genesis if it works.

As for speed, a standard voice connection is 33kb/s, which is 33 b/ms.   A standard Genesis controller has 8 bits, N, S, E, W, A, B, C, and Start. A 6 button controller has 4 more buttons, X, Y, Z, and Mode  So that's 12 bits/frame.   Sprint said they could eventually do high-speed low-ping conections, but it can't be done now.   So 33 b/ms is the limit.   Also if you go beyond one ms, the range is reduced.  Any 2 player game will fit.   A 4 player game may fit, if you're 200 km closer than the absolute maximum of 1600 km. (assuming the network is 2/3 efficient.)

I've given my secret to do the seemingly impossible.   Any takers?

Offline hyper999

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 12:11:14 PM »
I believe this is how Dolphin emulator works for playing multi-player Wii and GC (Smash Bros and Project M :D) over the internet. I think what it does is essentially run the Game on one device and then just swap display and controller data with the other.

Offline tripletopper

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 06:08:05 PM »
Does Dolphin, Project M and Smash Bros. use Sprint Direct Connect (or something else that can do 1 ms per 200-300 km distance and is a direct path)?

But my secret is to use a low ping internet connection.   The advantage is that EVERY game can be turned online by simply being within range, which can be up to 1600 km distance, without programming individual netcodes for individual games.   The disadvantage is that if you want it to work outside this range, you have to program an individual gamer's server to ref the game.  Whether you want to program an outside server depends on the popularity of the game.  Super Smash Brothers 64 or Melee is WAY more likely than M.A.D. for the 2600 to have a specific server programmed for it.   But M.A.D will work just as well as SSB if you use my technique and are in range. 

The regular network is limited is because it pings to quite a few off places to get to its destination, going from Cleveland to Denver, I went to Chicago, Atlanta, and Phoenix before gong to Denver.  Some ping jobs are even worse using a standard network.  Typical ping times between Cleveland and Chicago are 40 ms.  Which should be 4 ms if it was at the speed of light in a direct path.  If I'm able to tap into a more direct network, more games can be turned online by simply being in range.

Offline hyper999

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 12:07:21 PM »
Nope just uses a regular connection, if you are playing with someone in your country it is ok. Its not quite as responsive as playing on a console but it is playable. I'm not sure, but I think it might also have a buffer on the host end to account for ping so that frames appear at roughly the same time on both ends.

But the reason I posted was just to say I think this is feasible, I suspect finding someone to create it for a system that is so old will be the hardest part.

Also after a quick Google I believe there is PC emulators for the genesis that support netplay, unless there is something especially wrong with these emulators I don't really see the need for a Standalone console...

Offline tripletopper

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2014, 02:03:54 PM »
The main secret is not the emulation, it's the low ping connection that is the secret to seamless online game play.   It can work with an emulator (although there might be a few problems with certain games the emulator doesn't understand fully), but the idea is that Sega would endorse it if it is able to play games online and have it feel like a local game.   Ping times are between 40-100 ms with a standard connection.  It's doable, but you have to program 3-6 frames of artificial intelligence and fast forwarding and rewinding, and that requires some after-programming of each game on an individual basis.  I doubt Netplay works with every game in a no-ping fashion.   Certain games are programmed with no-ping play through using predictions and 6 frame rewindings and fast forwardings, usually the more popular and classic and best-for-multiplayer games, the ones 95% of current Genesis players will play 95% of the time, but if you want to play Earth Defence (most obscure 2 player Genesis game I have in my collection, your collection may vary) with a partner, you'll have to use a standard high-ping connection and have it feel way too proactive and way less reactive.  It would feel like you're on ice skates.

Here's how important ping is.   First hook up a Wii to a TV straight through and compare the cursor to your hand.  It's fairly predictable.  You can get your cursor to stop pretty close to one point on the screen.   Then try plugging it into a DVD recorder, preferably an older one.  But it cannot be a VCR.   You'll see that if you're reacting to the screen to place a cursor on one point, your cursor feels like it's on ice skates, staying fast when you go slow, stagnant for an instant after you move before it moves.   That's how networking "generically" (meaning no specific netcode) feels on a high ping connection.

Because the low-ping network technique works with every game without programming specific netcode, it can be used with the most games, therefore the Genesis playability should be 100% f you want to take advantage of every online game.  So you just need to build a Net Genesis with a less-than-one frame rewinding scheme for netplay original chips (How much do Genesis equivalent chips cost today?) and an SD card for games the rights are clear on, and a cartridge reader for those that aren't, and then Sega "gives" you free ROMs in return for watching one commercial each time you switch ROMs or switch distant opponents, (anything that stops the running of the game)   Sega and Third parties can continuously make money with the more popular games getting more ad views, and not have too do any programming work if it's 100% Genesis compatible and the network works without any netcode.

The elephant in the room is ping time.   Most people are talking of other aspects, but if you can reduce ping times, better things will happen.  And nothing in the commonly known universe has a low ping time as light waves, which is how cellular transmits.   The only reason why CURRENT data is higher ping is because the cellular component is only one leg of the trip.  Between two cell users, it goes from cell to net to cell which is high ping with 2 translations.  And the net is not a direct line path, so it will not achieve Push-to-Talk ping times.

Offline hyper999

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 09:25:34 AM »
Dolphin doesn't use specific net code for games, before the game starts the host sets the size off the frame buffer depending on your ping, I would imagine the genesis equivalents do the same. I cant really comment on the lag that much as I don't really notice it but some of my friends who play smash more seriously do. Its perfectly playable though you should give the emulators a try ;)

Offline tripletopper

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 04:33:08 PM »
The point is that Super Smash Bros. has enough of a following where if you only had to netcode certain games, Smash Bros would be one of those games worth making net code for,   My question is will the most obscure game from the most obscure third party manufacturer work just as well as Smash Bros, assuming you both have the same version of the same ROM?

If it doesn't, then the netcode is specific to Smash Bros.  It won't work for a Mario Party game for example or F Zero GX.   There maybe more than one title, but not every title.  Under this system, you have to program a specific netcode for a specific game.


But if it is a generic system, then you either need a low-ping connection, or there is a skatey or jumpy effect.  Compare controlling your guy against the computer or locals vs against remotes.  If it feels different online, then the generic code is ether skatey or jumpy.   You cannot have a generic code that does not feel skatey nor jumpy without using a sub 8 ms ping connection for a 60 frame per second game.   That's why people program specific net code for the good games

Instead of playing it on Emulators, I'm trying to give credit to the great game makers by making sure their game gets played and they make money off the game.   The idea of a Net Genesis where Sega gives its own and third party games who cooperate, give them for free, and have them make money off it without you spending money on individual.   The idea for one ROM turn on = one commercial means they continually make money without asking money from you to rebuy it again. Of course if you value your free time more than the costMost poor video games have more time than money.   This is a way Sega can make money off their Genesis cartridges.  I'm trying to find a white market solution that seems reasonable to most parties including consumers.  Since 90% of retrogamers are modern gamers too, they can advertise their new game content for modern systems on this platform.   And since Sega is neutral in the system war, they and their third parties can advertise PS3, PSV, PS4, 360, One, 3DS, and Wii U games without stepping on someone's toes.

And Yes, I'm trying to make some money on it, and hopefully a partner can build according to my specs and see a percentage.  I know it can be done, using pieces of info I've seen.   I just don't know how to do it myself.   I don't have good soldering skills or the technical knowledge on how or where to solder for one.

The incomplete sentence:  If you value your free time in avoiding commercials more than your money, Sega can set a market value for an "ad-free" version of the game equivalent to the average number of views a person would see.   Plus more popular games make more money.   

One other point:  And the really good games can still run off netcode, because the main flaw of my system is limited range, but netcode can cure that.   By the way, assuming Sprint is 66% efficient, the distance is about 1600 km for a 60 frame per second game between the farthest 2 participants.   But automatic networking and real hardeare would make more third parties come out of the woodwork.  All they have to do is give Atari or Sega (the 2 biggest open-to-my-ideas examples)  the ROM and not have to worry about getting the emulator to work with it, and don't have to worry about netcode.http://www.acidmods.com/forum/index.php/topic,43401.0.html

[mod]Use the modify button so u dont double post![/mod]
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 05:41:24 PM by WHITE 4ND N3RDY »

Offline FOOKz™

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Re: Will Partner with person who can prototype Online Genesis
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 05:41:23 PM »
Matt is trying to say if a game does not support online multiplayer in the game's programming you almost can not play the game through any kind of network connection.

However,

You can simulate multiplayer through major hardware modifications of a console.

Forwarding controller data through the network to the other player's console and vice-versa.

This in theory can work but the big technical problem would be syncing the two game's data together periodically.




On the other hand if the game supports online multiplayer then you just need to worry about spoofing an IP address on the local network then forwarding it to a real IP address, in turn, the central server that handles online matchmaking... (just like how Playstation and Xbox does today).

Hamaichi or X-Link Kai are both great programs that already do half of the work for you.



Also.... words of wisdom:


FYI, there is a genesis emulator for modded xbox 360's. I fell you would be better off perfecting the emulator and working with FSD/Link to establish a multiplayer platform on their existing network.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 05:43:47 PM by FOOKz™ »

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